» TPO Roof "fun pictures"

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  Post subject: TPO Roof "fun pictures"
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:39 pm 
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http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/alb ... 1410NjElbu

disclaimer :
"THIS IS TPO NOT PVC !!"

Thought you guys would like this.

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Last edited by RooferJ on Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:11 am 
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I remember seeing those some time back. Kinda neat how all these new and improved materials perform.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:38 am 
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Those are photo's of JP Stevens membrane. No longer made because of the problems from lack of material over the scrim. Does Trocal mean anything to the PVC business?
Once again, typical IB slamming without telling the whole story.
Next photo's should be IB after it has darkened to a chocolat brown and is no longer white enough to qualify as a cool roof.........or photo's of the chlorine smoke wafing off of the welder into the air and lungs of the applicator, knowing it becomes hydrochloric acid in his lungs.
Come on, as I said before every roofing material has had it's problems. The important part for the building owner is knowing that any problem is taken care of by the manufacturer. Both PVC and TPO are good membranes that serve the roofing industry well.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:50 am 
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donl wrote:
Those are photo's of JP Stevens membrane. No longer made because of the problems from lack of material over the scrim. Does Trocal mean anything to the PVC business?
Once again, typical IB slamming without telling the whole story.
Next photo's should be IB after it has darkened to a chocolat brown and is no longer white enough to qualify as a cool roof.........or photo's of the chlorine smoke wafing off of the welder into the air and lungs of the applicator, knowing it becomes hydrochloric acid in his lungs.
Come on, as I said before every roofing material has had it's problems. The important part for the building owner is knowing that any problem is taken care of by the manufacturer. Both PVC and TPO are good membranes that serve the roofing industry well.


And, it should also be noted that ALL roofs fail; sometimes it is the manufacturer's fault, and some times it is the applicators fault. And eventually, all roofs will fail over time, and that usually is nobody's fault.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:21 am 
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These photos are certainly not IB. They are TPO. They were taken by Mike Hicks of Hicks Roofing in Ohio.
JP Stevens is "was" a Hypalon "very similar to TPO actually" I know I installed it back in the 80's. It was crap compared to Sarnafil . Trocal had problems because it was an unreinforced sheet and when there were real cold temps the plastizers would migrate and it would do what they call "glass transition" and could actually shatter. I saw some Trocal roofs totally split and could leave the building as if it had no roof at all. Dont confuse apples with oranges Donal.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:13 am 
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Come on, do your homework. Stevens was one of the first to introduce TPO membrane. Yes, they did sell Hypalon and it did have much the same problem as their TPO, not enough membrane over scrim.

All PVC's have plasticizer migration, that is the nature of the beast. Some are worse than others. One PVC uses about 50% Elvaloy as a plasticizer which helps prevent plasticizer loss. TPO has no plasticizer and is fully cured when you get it.

Application of Hypalon is quite different than TPO in every way and is somewhat the same as PVC in the way it welds. Let me refresh your memory about how Hypalon starts to cure in the roll, making it darn near impossible to weld. Hypalon is a thermoset material like EPDM not like TPO (thermoplastic). Very little of it is being used in the US. Works great for underground pipe seals, but not so hot on roofs. Tends to Mud Crack.
Don't tell me IB's going to slam Hypalon to make its product look better! ---only kidding.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:17 pm 
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Do people here understand that TPO is actually a blend of olefins and synthetic rubber? In other words, TPO is the first cousin to EPDM and PVC. It provides the performance of a PVC membrane without the need or loss of plasticizers because they are replaced with the synthetic rubber you find in EPDM. The most important part, and the reason TPO is spreading through the industry like wild-fire, is because it is cheap to manufacture AND install. Because of the lesser cost to manufacture TPO over membranes such as EPDM, PVC, CSPE, etc., plants are being built all over the U.S. to keep up with demand and to provide a local outlet.

So, if you like the weldable laps with PVC and the puncture resistance, then you'll also like welding TPO and admire it's puncture resistance as well, without having to worry about plasticizer migration.

If you like the inexpensive cost of EPDM, the formulation of TPO allows it to be competitive with EPDM from a cost stand point, but much better than EPDM with regard to laps, reflectivity, emissivity, etc.

And for those of you that don't realize it, TPO's have replaced the PVC and other plastics used to make dashboards on vehicles, as it stands up much better to the heat and doesn't crack and split like the old plastics did when exposed to UV solar-radiation.

Also, it should be noted the sheets some are showing as failed TPO are from the early years of TPO roofing before there were ASTM testing criteria. Things have changed, so someone showing a failed TPO membrane from the 1990's is like me showing a failed Carlisle EPDM roof from back when they were using N-100 Lap Adhesive instead of EP-95 or Seam Tapes; it is deceptive!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:20 pm 
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some good points made guys.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:08 am 
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To Cerberus and Donl:

Guys, I respect your knowledge and experience, of which you have more than I do. At the same time, it seems strange to me that you both defend TPO so actively – here is why:

Putting IB Roofs aside, I do believe that TPO is a bad product (here in US). But besides that notion I have to say that although these pictures ( http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/alb ... 1410NjElbu )are from 97 and the membrane was made around 1990, what has changed?

Quote:
Also, it should be noted the sheets some are showing as failed TPO are from the early years of TPO roofing before there were ASTM testing criteria. Things have changed, so someone showing a failed TPO membrane from the 1990’s is like me showing a failed Carlisle EPDM roof from back when they were using N-100 Lap Adhesive instead of EP-95 or Seam Tapes; it is deceptive!


Cerberus – when you point out that it was one of the original TPO membranes that failed, do you really know what we as industry are dealing with now?

Do you know what exactly is sold at a local Bradco or ABC? Which formulation it is and how long it will last? Not a single TPO manufacturer will tell you what you are buying – they will never admit that they have a problem, unless it is a HUGE f-up.

Can you possibly know when this TPO will fail or will it last 15-20-25 years. No, you can’t know that, judging from what the TPO manufacturers are doing, which is changing the formulation every few years. And why? Is it because the previous formulation failed? And maybe to put even more fillers in the product to make it cheaper?

As much as I don’t like EPDM rubber roofing, as a flat roofing product, at least with it you know what you are dealing with: Membrane won’t fail. It will be the seams that will start leaking. So you can plan accordingly.

With TPO, you have:

- premature curing
- seam failures
- loss of thickness
- and now we find out that “someâ€Â

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:58 pm 
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And while you addressed your post to both myself and Donl, you seem to actually be directing the post at me. So, here it is in a nutshell.

1st - I'm not totally 100% comfortable with TPO yet, but that is because as a consultant I like something with a long successful track record. I know that TPO roofing is in its infancy, and like EPDM, Mod Bit, and yes, even PVC, systems in their infancy tend to have problems that need to be ironed out. In the meantime, as a specifier I am required by local codes to specify a roof with 70+% reflectivity and .70+ emissivity. In other words, I can choose between TPO and Derbibrite since PVC membrane isn't popular in Houston.

2nd - If I was going to use a PVC roof, it would only be Sarnafil. However, now that it is Sika-Sarnafil how do we know they won't play with the formulation? You asked me that question about TPO, so I am turning it around on you. Afterall, the first thing Firestone did when they purchased Rhoflex mod. bit. was change the formulation and make it cheaper in both quality and price.

I could go on, but lets cut to the chase.

Different roof systems work well in different climates and/or zones. What may work in Boston, doesn't necessarily work here in Houston. Exposure to high/low temperature extremes play a part in what membrane should be chosen. Exposure to UV solar-radiation, acid rain, foot traffic, along with building use, location, roof height, etc., all should be considered when designing a roof system. I don't specify mod. bit., TPO, BUR, or any one roof for every building, and I certainly hope you aren't only selling PVC for your low-sloped roofs. To do so either shows you are limited by the manufacturer's approvals you can get, or lack of knowledge about other types of roofs.

Now, from time-to-time someone will ask me what is my favorite type of roof. Well, my answer would have to be zinc standing-seam metal roof; I've only seen one, and it was put on St. Elizabeth's Hospital in D.C. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01192.html), but it seems based on the article that the 150 year old roofs have finally begun to fail. :shock: Then again, maybe those aren't the zinc roofs that are failing, as I think they also had some slate roofs out there (it was back in the late 80's or early 90's I provided consulting services there).

Oh, and the reason I asked you about your wanting photos of failed roofs is because it sounded like you were going on a witch-hunt; it appears that I was right. :|

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:32 pm 
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Cerberus,

I did address both you and Donl. Its just that Donl did not really defend TPO - more like bashed IB :mrgreen:

Anyway, one by one:

Am I starting a witch hunt? NO! ... I know of enough TPO failures and some big ones here in New England, but I'm not at liberty to disclose them and can't compromise my sources.

I really don't care that much for TPO - I understand that people want to save money and will 99% of the time go with a cheap option - not quality. This is especially true in commercial market, which you (Cerberus) represent. In residential roofing things are different and TPO guys don't know how to market to homeowners - therefore I don't care much about TPO unless we are bidding on the same, usually commercial roof.

My problem with TPO is fundamental - until manufacturers stop "scamming" their customers (roof owners and contractors) by putting out crap products, I will have a problem with TPO. When they make TPO a good product, I will like it, but it won't be as competitive, and PVC will kick its butt :D Pictures I needed as visual content.

Now about specifying practices: Basically from your last post I conclude that you will specify a roof that you are "not totally 100% comfortable with TPO yet" because local codes requires roof to be 70% cool and people are not willing to pay premium for PVC.

Also you as a roofing consultant know more than most people here do, and certainly much more than your "customers" - that's why they hire you. I don't understand why you would "withhold" information about TPO from your customers? Both Good and Bad.

Why did I use term "withhold"? If you told them about high risk potential of their TPO roof failing withing 7-10 years, they would not buy it. Therefore, I assume you do not enlighten your customers about these matters.

I want to stress the point that recent MRCA advisory about TPO roof failures concerns mainly the southern US - your territory with high temps and constant UV exposure.

Bottom line - TPO gets specified because it's cheap - not because its good, and at the expense of building owners.

Quote:
I don't specify mod. bit., TPO, BUR, or any one roof for every building, and I certainly hope you aren't only selling PVC for your low-sloped roofs. To do so either shows you are limited by the manufacturer's approvals you can get, or lack of knowledge about other types of roofs.


Maybe I do lack both knowledge and /or manufacturer's approvals :mrgreen:

You know - I can buy pretty much any roof I want - TPO / PVC / EPDM or even mod. bit. without manufacturer's approvals - my suppliers will sell it easy, and I am approved by Soprema, so I can do their PVC, and Mod. Bit. and liquid products. I usually won't. I won't install rubber because it will leak (not right away of course, but still). I won't install Mod. Bit. ... well I never did and don't want to learn because in my opinion it's torch-down (usually), it's inferior - those seams will separate and roof will once again leak :) TPO I just don't trust. So that leaves PVC which I'm very comfortable with and, since we do not do skyscrapers, it fits our needs 99% of the time. Only once we had a roof for which PVC would not work, but the customer was not willing to pay $2000/sq of Soprema liquid-applied (not coating) - He wanted Rubber for $450/sq. Well I think that's what he got :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

So yea - most of the time I will prescribe PVC.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:57 pm 
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Hey LA, we are installing Spreama-Flag PVC right now on a job in Cohasset,Ma looks just like copper roof for a third the cost, even the coated metal looked like copper :o cool stuff . The John Hancock Tower the tallest building in Boston, 60-story, 790-foot (241 m) skyscraper. It has a 25 year old Sarnafil roof. Modified Bitumen is almost extinct, rightfully so. EPDM though is a different story, they can go for years with a some maintenence.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:25 am 
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Jim,

I don't know about mod. bit. being extinct - they just did a big Soprema roof on a school in Revere, and it also had a HUGE integrated thin-film solar PV system - I'd say over 50 KW there. And many more mod. bits. are going up.

I saw that Soprema copper and silver PVC - looks good, but I never worked with it. Share the pics when you are done. Are you guys doing the ribs also?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:24 am 
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I just put up some pics of sopreama-flag pvc on facebook. if your on there look me up under Jim Bennette. Ask your supplier how much mod bit they sell compared to fifteen years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:04 am 
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I have checked out the link and found it pretty cool, i have also tried to upload some pics but i am unable to upload them, i dont know the reason. :(


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