The comparison to a new car or truck is not the same.

Each dealer receives the exact same vehicle, plus or minus various options.

They only have price and vehicle reputation to sell on, plus maybe their service department.

How did the "Sales Man" treat you? That is it.

You can buy the exact same TV from Best Buy or Circuit City, so, why not shop for the best price you can get.

A roof, or any construction trade end product, are all custom made products, installed specifically for that particular home and its nuances.

I probably would not have even submitted my proposal to you, if I knew you were getting 6 "Bids". That smells of tire kicker all the way.

I have my 31 years in roofing as my selling aspect, but there are many others who claim the same thing or more and are lying through there teeth.

My reference list looks like a mini-White Pages from the phone book.

I evaluate each and every home on an individual basis for what I know it needs or from what the customer tells me they desire to be upgraded.

Now, some other company says they will do the same thing, but the home owner is left wondering after the fact why his decision is suspect.

Time, quality and education about the intricacies of all previous roofs and the experience level to deal with surprises that come up, are a mandate for a quality job.

I, and I am pretty much alone on this, except for the guy who owns his own company and also works on every job, believe that the demise in quality standards is directly related to the jobs nearly all being subcontracted out to others. There is no vested interest from that sub, to do a quality kob and learn from one job to the next.

Anybody can buy the same shingles and nails and felt paper and nails and ventilation products, but it is the completed job and timeliness that determines the customers full satisfaction level.

None know what that will be, until they actually hire someone to provide the service.

My list of unsolicited testimonials should reinforce that concept in the minds of home owners making this choice, but they still usually opt for the cheaper bid anyways, especially this year.

How can I "Prove" to a home owner, that the quality goes into each and every job we do, just like I preach?

What information does it take, to convince a home owner, that the other guy subbing out the job and charging $ 7,000.00 will do a much more inferior job than I have budgeted for $ 8,000.00?

Too many people just think, "Well, It's Only A Roof." or, "All Roofs Are The Same."

What does it take to convince them otherwise, based on your current experience?

Ed
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to shadengo,

You see, when you shop for a car, YOU go to the dealership, and look at cars - you don't have car salesmen come to your house with for the presentation. Now cars are a bad example, since many folks still manage to abuse salesman's time - in professional jargon of car sales, these people are called strokers and Super-strokers those who do a test-drive and ask 100's of questions while having no intention to buy.

But lets get back to construction. I do not like strokers. And just like you - the consumer, I must pre-qualify the customer, to brush out if not all, then most of the disrespectful, greedy, at times dumb strokers. They damage my karma and make me angry... do I need that? NO. I want serious people who need a good roof, quality installation, warranty, customer service and many other marketing terms, ans also are ready to pay premium for all those great things. I mean come on, you don't go shopping for a Lexus, and expect to pay a Hyundai price, do you?

So, I let the customer do their due diligence, but not at my expense. I do however provide them with as much information as possible before there is a need to actually go and measure - that is the beauty of internet communications.

Good luck with your contractor.
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baycompany wrote:

I am curious about the shopper's mentality... are you suggesting that when you start looking around for a gynecologist or proctologist, that your comfortable with the lowest price or the best referrals? just saying!! David

<grin> Proctologist?!?! I look for the one that has the biggest breasts! (hey, if I need it done, it might as well be a hot babe....lol)

That said, different situation entirely...mostly because most of us dont pay for Doctors out of pocket...we are restricted who we can go to based on insurance. So I have never shopped for a doctor on price, but I have shopped for a doctor based on referals.

Do you mean to say that you NEVER look for better prices on anything?

Its unfair to assume that "shopper mentality" means JUST based on price. I shop around, and price comes into it....In my case, I went with a guy who was more $$$ but seemed to offer better referals AND more value (used roof apron (that now I dont know wasa good idea or not) and synthetic underlayment, and all aluminum soffit/fascia).... I did my homework and DIDNT base my decision on price (they were all about the same really) and STILL having some issues.

So what is a poor consumer to do??

I started seeing this problem in Michigan a few years ago and when I brought it up on the internet in different roofing forums, the answer was ALWAYS, "you're just not a good enough salesman." but now that the problem is spreading out throughout different parts of the country, its all the customers mentality and how dumb they are.

I can say now, now that I have conquered the problem,that yes, they were right, I wasn't a good salesman.



I say it to them now and they don't want to hear it because now the shoe is on the other foot, but.... You need to be a better salesman!!!!


I call the guys who had it so good in the years past, Order Takers, because thats all they needed to know how to do, was write up the order, now when they need to have sales skills, they are lacking in that department and are lost.

Find your sales technique, practice your sales, learn sales.

You need to be a better salesman!!!!


or we all need to ban together and all of us charge for estimates....and we all know thats not going to happen.
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ed the roofer wrote:

The comparison to a new car or truck is not the same. Each dealer receives the exact same vehicle, plus or minus various options. They only have price and vehicle reputation to sell on, plus maybe their service department. How did the "Sales Man" treat you? That is it. You can buy the exact same TV from Best Buy or Circuit City, so, why not shop for the best price you can get. A roof, or any construction trade end product, are all custom made products, installed specifically for that particular home and its nuances. I probably would not have even submitted my proposal to you, if I knew you were getting 6 "Bids". That smells of tire kicker all the way. I have my 31 years in roofing as my selling aspect, but there are many others who claim the same thing or more and are lying through there teeth. My reference list looks like a mini-White Pages from the phone book. I evaluate each and every home on an individual basis for what I know it needs or from what the customer tells me they desire to be upgraded. Now, some other company says they will do the same thing, but the home owner is left wondering after the fact why his decision is suspect. Time, quality and education about the intricacies of all previous roofs and the experience level to deal with surprises that come up, are a mandate for a quality job. I, and I am pretty much alone on this, except for the guy who owns his own company and also works on every job, believe that the demise in quality standards is directly related to the jobs nearly all being subcontracted out to others. There is no vested interest from that sub, to do a quality kob and learn from one job to the next. Anybody can buy the same shingles and nails and felt paper and nails and ventilation products, but it is the completed job and timeliness that determines the customers full satisfaction level. None know what that will be, until they actually hire someone to provide the service. My list of unsolicited testimonials should reinforce that concept in the minds of home owners making this choice, but they still usually opt for the cheaper bid anyways, especially this year. How can I "Prove" to a home owner, that the quality goes into each and every job we do, just like I preach? What information does it take, to convince a home owner, that the other guy subbing out the job and charging $ 7,000.00 will do a much more inferior job than I have budgeted for $ 8,000.00? Too many people just think, "Well, It's Only A Roof." or, "All Roofs Are The Same." What does it take to convince them otherwise, based on your current experience? Ed

Did you read my post at all?

I clearly said that I DIDNT choose based on price soley and that I actually DID hire the guy with the best refs and what I figured was the best technique/value ....

Its funny that you say "I wouldnt have given you an estimate if I knew that you were getting 5 others".....Are you saying that when a customer comes to you that they are supposed to just fall into your arms and go with whatever you propose based on what you tell them?

True, a car is a car is a car.....and true that each contractor has a different way of doing the same job.,....I am pretty sure I already recognized that when I said that I looked at what each offered NOT just the price they offered...But like a car, getting a roof is a big expense and it still makes sense to see what the options are...in price as well as the various roofers offering their services...look at that end of it like shopping between chevy, ford, toyota etc....they are all cars but each one has good and bad points and levels of quality. The ONLY way to see the difference is to go LOOK at them and LEARN about them.

Choosing a roofer is NO DIFFERENT in my humble opinion.

ALL contractors have refereneces...and lets face it, are you going to give a reference to someone that might be a NEGATIVE one? Of course not...so, as a consumer I have to look at the referals with the proverbial grain of salt...a consuemr cannot go by just references on a piece of paper.

The stuff you ramble off as being what a person should go by (experience, quality of work, etc etc etc) is all great and I agree 100% with you....but the point I am making is that as a consumer, we only know WHAT YOU TELL US. How can we really validate ANY of your sales pitch (and it IS a sales pitch when you sit down with a potential customer and tell the mof your quality, background , etc.) without talking to OTHER roofers as well to compare and see what sounds like BS and what sounds legit?

I am clearly agreeing with you on many points, Ed.

I am about as far from being YOUR definition of a tire kicker as possible....I went with numerous estimates for the VERY REASONS you listed you are the better roofer...I was tryin gto find one that impressed me the most. Price was secondary (but still an issue). I was NOT looking for a "bargain roof".

Turns out (as I said) that the price for all 6 bids were very close at the bottom line (individual charges for the items I needed done were a little different) so (again) I wnet with the roofer who impressed me the most with his claim of expeirence, numerous references that checked out, going to see actual roofs he did, etc.

I take offense to your inferring I was "shopping for price" because that is 100% opposite the truth.

On one hand you say that a consumer should go with the roofer that "has the most experience, blah blah blah..."...yet how is a consumer supposed to KNOw unless he gets bids and speaks with numerous roofers?

LAMetalRoofs wrote:

to shadengo, You see, when you shop for a car, YOU go to the dealership, and look at cars - you don't have car salesmen come to your house with for the presentation. Now cars are a bad example, since many folks still manage to abuse salesman's time - in professional jargon of car sales, these people are called strokers and Super-strokers those who do a test-drive and ask 100's of questions while having no intention to buy. But lets get back to construction. I do not like strokers. And just like you - the consumer, I must pre-qualify the customer, to brush out if not all, then most of the disrespectful, greedy, at times dumb strokers. They damage my karma and make me angry... do I need that? NO. I want serious people who need a good roof, quality installation, warranty, customer service and many other marketing terms, ans also are ready to pay premium for all those great things. I mean come on, you don't go shopping for a Lexus, and expect to pay a Hyundai price, do you? So, I let the customer do their due diligence, but not at my expense. I do however provide them with as much information as possible before there is a need to actually go and measure - that is the beauty of internet communications. Good luck with your contractor.

Well, not to nitpick, but that isnt true (about car dealers not coming to you....high end car dealers WILL come to your house with a new car and try to sell you on it. That is reserved for teh upper class, of course, but its standard. I wish I fit into that class...LOL

And I am NOT disagreeing that there are consumers out there that are "strokers" as you put it.....

I do extensive research on stuff before I buy...cars, motorcycles, parts for either, etc etc...and yes, roofs. I dont have a ton of money to squander and insist on getting a good value or at least what I pay for.

If anyone feels that my getting 6 estimates is "strokerish", so be it. I did get six estimates and now the guy I hired has $9 so far of my hard earned cash in HIS pocket and I have issues with him now that he has most of my cash.....

You better get used to consumers wanting estimates for comparison.......because an informed consumer is a good consumer..and the way things are right now with the cost of everything, expect MORE consumers to start doing their homework.

There are too many sheister contractors out there to pay for estimates. If , as a consumer, I could be guaranteed that every estinmate I got was a legitimate and experieneced person, I would pay for them....but its impossible to know if a particular contractor is a sheister or the real deal until AFTER you meet them and AFTER they submit a bid.

Oh, and no one answered the question I posed about corporations and big companies requiring bids.....I have worked for a major fortune 500 company for 20 years and you would be surprised how many "tire kicker" bids are requested for jobs that are never intended to be fulfilled...just lookin gat "what ifs"....(not by my doing, other departments)...which I think is really crumby to do....but they do it and none of the contractors seem to mind doing free bids for these potentially big contracts.

Maybe what you are saying is that "if the potential profit is high enough then I will do free estimates".....well, it was your choice to get into residential roofing...and most residential customers do NOT have money to waste on poor roofing jobs and DO try and find the best deal and the best job.....

I am pretty sure you do the same thing in your day to day life in everything you buy, and to say it isnt the same is naive. Different circumstances but the same central theme: Tryin gto be sure you get the most bang for your buck while not getting screwed.

It almost sounds like some guys here would prefer to have every customer just go on what he says and nothing else....THAT sounds like a "dumb consumer" to me.....I would also suggest that those are the EASY customers to get.

If you can present your proposal and your wares to me along with 5 other guys and you get my moneym, then you must really have impressed me.

Problem is, THAT doesnt always work for the consumer either, because CLEARLY some contractors misrepresent things.

This guy impressed the hell out of me and while th work getting done seems good, there are nagging questions as well as issue with crew.

So a consumer is NEVER 100% sure about a contractor or other service provider until he has layed his money on the line and been through it to the end.

To get back to charging for estimates, seems to me that it is simply a cost of doing business....You gamble that going out and spending a half hour or hour at someones house will net you a $16,000 job, as in my case (understanding that materials and labor come out of that).....some bets pay off, others do not.

The person that you alienate by insiting on charging for an estimate could be another "stroker", "tire kicker"...or it could be a guy like me with $16k to spend on his roof.

In that aspect consumers and contractors are very much alike....neither of us know if the meeting will be fruitful or not til it is given the chance.

You were the exception to the rule by your diligent comparisons. I read your post very clearly.

Usually, when a person gets 6-10 bids, there head is swimming from all of the Sales Misinformation they received. Then, they figure, A Roof Is just A Roof, so I will choose this guy, just because of price. Most Home Owners never choose the lowest price, but one in the middle. Since over 90% of roofs installed, do not meet the manufacturers specifications, what chance does a home owner have in choosing one of the ones even in the middle of the pack?

"But this guy and 4 other said I don't need any more ventilation."

"But this guy said that this Ridge Vent is the best."

By the way, their is a poster in the DIY forum you recently posted in, that found out what one major difference is, regarding having a filter in a ridge vent and why it should be there.

I try the best I can, to NOT be a salesman, but rather a consultant for the best products and installation methods for each unique homes situations. Some are much less complicated to deduce and would typically get similar advice from most contractors, but others need Kid Glove consideration.

Yes, the end result is a hoped for sale.

So, what could I do, to really show you, upon meeting, that my specifications really deserved higher consideration, regardless of price?

Ed
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"So, what could I do, to really show you, upon meeting, that my specifications really deserved higher consideration, regardless of price? "


Ed, that is one of the questions that will make you a better salesman.....
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I dont think roofers giving free estimates would be an issue if you were staying busy all week installing.

I think the blame can be put on this crazy ecomony due to this war. Causing no jobs - no money and high gas prices!

I think if you were busy all week - making all kinds of money - you would call an estimate the price of doing business!

Unfortunately, some could lose money giving estimates if they are not selling!

!

Shinglehitter........I don't think the war can be blamed for people getting multiple estimates. I think that blame can be put on the Big Box stores that we all shop at. Walmart, Home Depot, Menards, Lowes, those are the reasons everybody thinks they can get the best prices. Everybody thinks they are bargin shoppers. The war didn't put all the Ma and Pa stores out of business, the big box stores did. But if you think about it, we all shop at those stores, so in realality, WE are to blame. Every single one of us that shops at those stores made this economy what it is today.

it wasn't the war.
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G-Tape wrote:

But if you think about it, we all shop at those stores, so in realality, WE are to blame. Every single one of us that shops at those stores made this economy what it is today. it wasn't the war.

AMEN to that.

And Ed, you sound like a real decent guy and trust me , your points are not lost on me.

Your question in your last post is exactly the companion to what the consumer is asking (or WANTS to ask)...."How do I know that the contractor telling me all this stuff is legit and knows what he is talking about?" So yes, many do give up and go with price....I am a stubborn SOB and try to get hmy head wrapped around details so I can make a good decision....

I think I still got a bit stung with the guy I picked...

The crew is blaming my house now for the Alcoa Roof Apron system not working properly....

Seems to me that ANY home is going to have settling and crooked lines, etc to some degree unless it is a brand new home.....and if a certain system wont work with a given home, it is up to the contractor to KNOW that and NOT use it if need be....

My guy insisted that the roof apron etc is the cats meow and will work great...now, to get the gutters to flow right and not be unlevel to the non-drain side, they will have to pop the gutters OUT of the channel, thus defeating teh whole concept.

Was I as the consumer supposed to know this?

No you were not.

I am not sure if I am understanding your gutter and gutter apron situation correctly.

The gutter apron goes on before the shingles get installed.

The gutter gets installed to the fascia board, with the back side being tucked up under the gutter apron about as high as possible and the downspout locations in the gutter are where the gutter is allowed to pitch downwards to allow the water to flow to the drop outlet.

Once the gutter is installed, you should not even see the gutter apron from the ground, so, some waviness, even if the house has settled a bit does not matter.


So, are they trying to install the gutter so it is "Level"? If so, the water will pool inside and not go efficiently towards the drop outlet.

Ed
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Ed...

I am probably butchering the description...LOL so

http://www.alcoahomexteriors.com/Site/objects/Docs/InstallationInstructions/Guttersd.pdf

If you take a look at page 113, where it shows their apron, the apron and gutter never touch the fascia....no holes or anything into the fascia which is what sold me on it I guess.

What the crew is saying they need to do is pop the gutter out of the channel in sections (or perhaps the whole thing) and use screws thru the back of the gutter to secure it in place along with the brackets shown. The gutters are hung "properly" as far as the system is concerned except that the gutter in question is low on the non drain side....resulting in a huge pooling at that end. I dont figure that a 1/4 or water os o standing there is a big deal, but over time, but a larger amount would be right? Plus, winter freezes etc and that water turns to blocks of ice....

Or am I too worried?

The crew is saying the house is to blame.

That receiver cleating system is designed to hang the gutter from the lip.

I would be concerned that the screws would back out either directly, or by a toggling effect.

By that, I mean that when their is significant weight from debris or snow in and on the guttering system, the gutter will be pushed down and when the weight is relieved, it would resort back close to its uppermost position. Repeat. Repeat again and again.

I could foresee that the zip screws, which are excellent for self drilling into sheet metal, how they could begin to back out by reverse threading outwards over time.

If the contractor states this is an appropriate remedy, then ask to see a home they did where they utilized that method, or see specifications from the manufacturer that say it will comply.

Otherwise, why can they not get the gutter 100% attached to the cleating system as it now stands?

You are also correct that a small pooling of water is not a faux pas on the gutter installation, but better drainage and pitch to the system still is the better alternative, which I do not think that you would be able to obtain with a fixed cleat height.

Ed
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ed the roofer wrote:

Otherwise, why can they not get the gutter 100% attached to the cleating system as it now stands? Ed

They say my roof is not level....since the roop apron with the channel follows the edge of the roof and has no adjustment to it, if the roof is not level the gutter will not be level.

I wont debate that with them because I guess maybe it could be...but what house is perfect??

But anyways, shouldnt the contractor be looking at those things as they bid and then subsequently do the tear off, to be sure that what they spec is "right" for the house ??

I am starting to think that what happened is I got a contractor who has done nice work but is too cock-sure of himself and is in love with a particular way of doing this....and doesnt want to entertain alternate systems for whatever reason.