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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:31 pm 
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What i'm saying is most new co.'s get out there and bid sub rates... :shock: and thats what pees me off.Just go work for somebody until you LEARN it.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:04 pm 
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I think a lot of you guys need to learn numbers. Better yet, go back to the job you had before you the recession and thought you had the skill and knowledge to start a roofing company.

If I was ever offered some of those rates, I would turn it down. Then, I would wait until roofer show up and call the immigration office and the state to check for work comp on the company. I have ZERO tolerance for all this unethical, immoral and dishonest crap.

I pay to follow the rules. So should you.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:03 am 
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I have all my insurance coverage. I w-2 my employees. I make more at subbing at $55 a sq. then being an employee. So why would I want to be an employee again. I have been there before. I didn't grow up with my family having a lot of money. I was a roofing labor employee for about ten years. Every company started somewhere. But I am all legal. I get jobs locally through my business and I make a lot more money off them but I have to do what I have to do to keep my guys busy. In my hometown companies are at $235 pr sq. Sucks but thats what everybody pretty much is at. You drive 5 hrs in another direction to Denver and they are way higher and that works there. I had to work for everything. I am just saying that I make a pretty good living bidding at $235 and subbing at $55 per square. That doesn't mean I don't do good work. I don't have an office, I don't have a brand new truck, and I keep my costs down. I am all legal though and thats important to me. Cost of living is not high here. Labor is low here compared to cities. That helps but its cost accounting 101. If my overhead is lower I can transfer that discount onto the customer. I don't wow the customer with my brand new truck or my nice big office. But I offer a quality roof and I am on every job working with my guys. Thats my business strategy. Why according to some of the big companies does that make me a bad company. I have no debt. I own all my equipment and not the bank. I have satisfied customers both my own jobs and companies I have subbed for. I'm legal. Why the hate cause I charge less??


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:21 am 
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Established roofing companies see this everyday. It is one of the biggest downfalls of this industry. The new companies start up and to compete they have to sell cheap. It is their only advantage (so they think). They cannot sell themselves, or their company, or experience, knowledge, reputation, they can only sell a cheap price. Yet they also claim to be the best and only do the best work. Their claim to fame is "I am the cheapest and the Best". Some how unlike anyone else they have outsmarted and outwitted and will outlast the successful and proven contractor.

on the otherside some customers fall for it. They will take their car to a mechanic and pay $75.00 per hr to have it repaired, they hire atty's for $150.00 per hr, they pay $75.00 for a 30 minute computer repair, etc etc etc. Then when it comes to the roof that protects everything they own they hire a company who charges $20-30 per hr for their labor. This company historically has less than a 5% chance of survival. So then the roof leaks, the company is out of business due to their low prices. If they are still in business they do not care to service the customer because they simply cannot afford to, they have only made enough money to pay some of their expenses.

The customer then figures they will have to spend the money they saved by going with the "low bidder" on repairing their new great deal of a roof. They will then spend more out of pocket money to repair all of the interior and property damage. They will then be telling those same friends and family they bragged to about the great price on their new roof, that they just realized they got taken when buying their new roof.

Meanwhile the "low baller" is now working for his old competition or he is still hacking and laughing or as they call it "blow and go". Hopefully he is honest enough and has included these terms into his sales pitch. I can only imagine, it go something like this "mrs. Jones we are cheapest because we don't care about quality we use the "blow and go" strategy . In fact last week our ground guy learned how to install a valley. We taught him the "blow and go" method. We will give you our specialty tail light warranty. If you cannot see my taillights from your front yard , don't call me because your warranty has already expired.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:10 am 
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I take offense to the mentality that higher pricer equals higher quality. In my experience, the lower priced companies have the highest qualities. Why? We are lean and mean. The "Owner" is on the job site and oversees quality, workmanship, customer desires, cleanup, etc.

I am a price whore. I am not ashamed. If your cost structure does not allow you to compete at my prices, then how is it my fault? Like it or not, we live in a Wal-Mart society. Price sells.

The other day I did a rather large new construction/tear off project. I bid $2600 labor because January roofing is slow and my guys need the work. The GC informed me his next bid came in at $10,000. I still made good money. Why should I feel bad? I then was told he had 58 more roofs to do. My workers all got to work and eat. My family got money for food and monthly bills. Why am I a bad person?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:30 pm 
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famous wrote:
I take offense to the mentality that higher pricer equals higher quality. In my experience, the lower priced companies have the highest qualities. Why? We are lean and mean. The "Owner" is on the job site and oversees quality, workmanship, customer desires, cleanup, etc.

I am a price whore. I am not ashamed. If your cost structure does not allow you to compete at my prices, then how is it my fault? Like it or not, we live in a Wal-Mart society. Price sells.

The other day I did a rather large new construction/tear off project. I bid $2600 labor because January roofing is slow and my guys need the work. The GC informed me his next bid came in at $10,000. I still made good money. Why should I feel bad? I then was told he had 58 more roofs to do. My workers all got to work and eat. My family got money for food and monthly bills. Why am I a bad person?

WHEN you learn how to bid you will be able to answer yourself, guys like you are who made the roofing industry like wal-mart prices,..WAKE UP kid!!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:45 pm 
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famous wrote:
I take offense to the mentality that higher pricer equals higher quality. In my experience, the lower priced companies have the highest qualities. Why? We are lean and mean. The "Owner" is on the job site and oversees quality, workmanship, customer desires, cleanup, etc.

I am a price whore. I am not ashamed. If your cost structure does not allow you to compete at my prices, then how is it my fault? Like it or not, we live in a Wal-Mart society. Price sells.

The other day I did a rather large new construction/tear off project. I bid $2600 labor because January roofing is slow and my guys need the work. The GC informed me his next bid came in at $10,000. I still made good money. Why should I feel bad? I then was told he had 58 more roofs to do. My workers all got to work and eat. My family got money for food and monthly bills. Why am I a bad person?


:?: So was this 58 roof proposal before or after you were sodomized by your bid and the GC?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 6:33 pm 
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famous wrote:
I take offense to the mentality that higher pricer equals higher quality. In my experience, the lower priced companies have the highest qualities. Why? We are lean and mean. The "Owner" is on the job site and oversees quality, workmanship, customer desires, cleanup, etc.

I am a price whore. I am not ashamed. If your cost structure does not allow you to compete at my prices, then how is it my fault? Like it or not, we live in a Wal-Mart society. Price sells.

The other day I did a rather large new construction/tear off project. I bid $2600 labor because January roofing is slow and my guys need the work. The GC informed me his next bid came in at $10,000. I still made good money. Why should I feel bad? I then was told he had 58 more roofs to do. My workers all got to work and eat. My family got money for food and monthly bills. Why am I a bad person?


Honestly dude, if I left $7,400 ($10,000 - $2,600) on the table, I wouldn't be bragging to anybody about it.

It has not been my experience in the least that the lowest priced contractors have offered the highest quality. At the same time, it hasn't been my experience that high price automatically correlates to high quality.

While it is important to control your costs, regardless of the industry, the lowest priced suppliers inevitably fail. Doesn't matter whether you're making parts for automotive companies, cell phones, computers or roofing. High quality is in fact the lowest cost if you actually have a real understanding of what total quality entails.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:22 pm 
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The problem is some of you guys are perfectly fine with being an employee of your own company.

What kind of benefits do you offer? How much do your employees make? How much do you make? How much money would you make if you weren't on the job? How much did you gas and wear and tear on equipment cost for that job? What about a permit? What is your employee turnover rate? How much money do you spend a month in advertising? How much is your phone bill? Truck payment? Licenses, insurances, comp?

How long until you can make enough money that you no longer have to do the physical work?

You have no idea you say? Oops. After paying all that, you just spent money on the job?

This is why the quality of this forum is deteriorating. I am glad there are still other ones out there that guys like you come to and get such a hard time by REAL PROFESSIONALS that you quit showing up and come here where others don't know enough about business so they agree with you.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Bambamm,

I respect your input and advice. I see a lot of this is a changing of the old guard. The roofing business is in a state of flux. I suspect a lot of the Glory Days are over. Honestly, I am Very Happy to clear $500 on every job after ALL expenses are paid. Where else can a man (or woman) legally make $500 per day in this economy. On the other hand, I hear guys say here that they wouldn't even get out of bed to make $500 a day. Quite simply, they have been spoiled. I have done jobs this year where I didn't make a dime but my crew got to work. Sure it is discouraging but I did a good thing because 4-5 guys got to work that day off of my effort. Creating work for others and just plain getting out of bed means something to me!

I just don't get this Lazy attitude everyone has now days. I am so sick of hearing about unemployment numbers and our so called recession. There's so much work out there if you are willing to Hustle and work hard.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:21 pm 
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famous wrote:
Bambamm,

I respect your input and advice. I see a lot of this is a changing of the old guard. The roofing business is in a state of flux. I suspect a lot of the Glory Days are over. Honestly, I am Very Happy to clear $500 on every job after ALL expenses are paid. Where else can a man (or woman) legally make $500 per day in this economy. On the other hand, I hear guys say here that they wouldn't even get out of bed to make $500 a day. Quite simply, they have been spoiled. I have done jobs this year where I didn't make a dime but my crew got to work. Sure it is discouraging but I did a good thing because 4-5 guys got to work that day off of my effort. Creating work for others and just plain getting out of bed means something to me!

I just don't get this Lazy attitude everyone has now days. I am so sick of hearing about unemployment numbers and our so called recession. There's so much work out there if you are willing to Hustle and work hard.



Even $500 a day is weak.Besides I thought you and 2 others were working? Working like that I can see how you went several days without pay.And to think you could have bid that job around the norm and fed your family really good.You might have been able to buy a dump trailer.And actually more than 4-5 people were affected by your efforts.I am always bitc*ing about the locals that underbid me.But man @ $7,000 ? What area do you work in? I have never heard of anything like that.For once I am speechless.And I doubt that it is the changing of the guard, thats a bunch of shi* too.I have no idea how you could possibly be 100% legit ?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Roofmaster,

$500 per day is not weak to me. It's a good living. I run my math for you: $2600 for 2 days labor of a four man crew. That's $1,300 per day for 4 men. I would love to have more please don't misunderstand me. In fact, I just hired a salesman to do my bids because I leave too much money on the table. My wife doesn't like it either I assure. My point is that $500 per day clear in my pocket is plenty of money for me. I easily support my 8 children. All houses and cars are paid for. What more can a man want? I'll take a $1,000 per day if I can get it but I can live on a whole lot less than $500 per day. 2 years ago, I was doing private contract work in Iraq 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week in a WAR ZONE and only made $400 per day. It seems that Roofing work has spoiled lots of men.....

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:13 am 
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HI,

Famous, I didn't mean to insult you or call you a bad person. It is however very apparent that you proving to be a very poor business man. No company can sustain having employees working and NOT MAKING A PROFIT. If you don't believe us check the statistics numbers don't lie. Also it is good for your famous image to dragg about being the lwest price. When Mr. customer wants an elcheapo roof from the " blow and go low bidder" they will chose you. When they want lasting quality from a company who will be there tomorrow because they are proven and profitable they will call us. I have had this conversation so many times with your kind that I am CONFIDENT that you will no more than the ones that have been there and done that and you will continue to argue and be right. However it is you, your company, and your customers that will pay the dearly price.

I am not saying that you cannot provide customers with a great value. However the cheapest price isn't always the great value. Our customers get a great value they get what they pay for. If I follow what your saying you think that in order to provide good service the companies must remain small. That statement shows your inexperience and lack of business sense. Good luck Famous, I hope you can be humble enough to listen to those who have been there and done what you are attempting to be successful at.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:31 am 
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famous wrote:
Roofmaster,

$500 per day is not weak to me. It's a good living. I run my math for you: $2600 for 2 days labor of a four man crew. That's $1,300 per day for 4 men. I would love to have more please don't misunderstand me. In fact, I just hired a salesman to do my bids because I leave too much money on the table. My wife doesn't like it either I assure. My point is that $500 per day clear in my pocket is plenty of money for me. I easily support my 8 children. All houses and cars are paid for. What more can a man want? I'll take a $1,000 per day if I can get it but I can live on a whole lot less than $500 per day. 2 years ago, I was doing private contract work in Iraq 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week in a WAR ZONE and only made $400 per day. It seems that Roofing work has spoiled lots of men.....

Back in the late 60s I was installing shingles for $10 per square. In the mid-70s I was knocking down $15 per square. And at that time believe me I knew everything just like you. I had the world by the ass. And to think 40 years later I see a young guy bragging that he can install shingles for $30 per square.

Most of us can't match that, we pay taxes, we pay Workman's Compensation, (FOR REAL) we pay liability insurance, we pay self-employment tax, we pay for phones advertising rent for our office we pay for trucks and insurance we pay for secretaries and homes and everything our families need.

But as you say quite simply, we have been spoiled. We have a lazy attitude and our years of experience is not worth the powder to blow it to hell. You will soon learn that your quick wit and wanting to tear the world a new ass-hole will soon be met with reality.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:04 am 
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The point is you should want to make $1000 plus per day.The idea of successful contracting to me is staying in a competitive bracket.Competitive is within the same area as other contractors.I would find it demeaning if I found out I was $7000 under some other hard working 100% legitimate contractor.I would certainly go back to the drawing board.If you was making $400 per day in the middle east then the only person and family you were affecting was your own.When you underbid no not that,.slaughter an estimate by $7000 then you single handedly put a ripple in your local contracting.Everyone has bills and mouths to feed.I guess some just want to "get by" and some want to succeed.If I had 8 kids who depended on me,I would want and most certainly need more.I have always thought it was great for someone to have a business.I still even at $5000.00 per week have a extremely difficult time believing that you are running a 100% legitimate operation.If you are comp'd up thats about 45% right out the gate.GL,Phones,gas(really high),rent or mortgage,vehicle maintenance,vehicle insurance,clothes,boots,health insurance,elec,propane,and god forbid you have a compressor go down.Then your taxes,what about your employees?Are you 1099'n them?Are you making tax payments?How are you advertising?How can you pay for a salesman?And somewhere in the mix you have to take care of your wife and kids.Can you blame your wife for being a little funny with this? I have a friend who is one hell of a interior guy,lots of talent but he just wants to get by.I think you will figure it out.If you stay within $300-$500 of the norm,you will make money..and lots of it.People here at roofing.com didn't just wake up yesterday and start a business.
They are trying to help you.The internet is an awesome tool.Lots of us that have been around are giving you true life experience.Some have put me in check,I re-evaluated my system and noticed that,no I didn't know all I thought I did.Its free advice.But I knew everything once upon a time also.

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