» Gutter Apron / Drip Edge Question

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  Post subject: Gutter Apron / Drip Edge Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:51 am 
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Hey Guys,

I have a 2 flat in Chicago and hired a roofer to reroof an enclosed front porch that is now a bedroom.

He reroofed it and never installed a drip edge/gutter apron. I can see the shingles then plywood exposed in some areas. To give him credit there was never a drip edge to begin with on the old roof.

Im a little skeptical of this approach as on my own home and other apt buildings I own it seems there is a metal flashing which I assume is the drip edge/apron that goes under the first course of starter shingles and then against the soffit.

Im thinking the way its installed now most water will run off the shingles onto the gutter but I guess there is a chance water could weep its way back into the plywood and rot it out.

Can someone comment whether a drip edge/gutter apron is necessary in this situation?

And I use this term drip edge/gutter apron interchangeably so please correct me if these are 2 different pieces of flashing. Im not a roofer! And frankly never really investigated a drip edge/gutter apron until now.

Thanks!


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  Post subject: drip edge
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:52 pm 
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well first of all,a cover up is just a temporary fix, you should have installed dripedge over the existing eave course,then started your shingles. call your roofer back and tell him to pull the nails out of the shingles and install eave dripedge at least.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:34 am 
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It sounds more like you need to call your roofer. Tell him you are unhappy about it and how much to install some.

Its my guess he never planned to install it. Was written in the contract? If not, thats the kind of roofer you got.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:40 am 
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Way too many contractors try to skimp on things that are strongly recommended, yet not vitally required.

I see a lack of Gutter Apron Drip Edge metal all the time. We always propose to include new Gutter Apron Drip Edge flashings, along with new ODE, Overhanging Drip Edge flashings on the Gable/Rake edges.

It is not essential, but the exposed wood will eventually suffer from moisture infiltration and wicking into the pores of its organic makeup.

I would request the roofer to come out and look at it and ask why he did not include it in his proposed scope of work. Find out if he will install it after the fact, whether as a compensatory token gesture or as a price for the installation that a more conscientious roofing contractor would have proposed initially.

Ed

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:42 am 
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It's very hard to install a gutter apron without removing the gutter, depending on how it was installed. In his defense was it a part of the contract? Is he willing to come back and do it for you for an additional? (If not call me.)

By the way, drip edge and gutter apron are two different things. Drip edge is not to be used in combination with a typical K style (ogee) gutter.

Gutter apron/ gutter flashing is a very essential component of a properly operating gutter system. Why? the short answer is it prevents wood rot and helps reduce backup of snow and ice and water behind the gutter and into the home. I wouldn't install a gutter without one...


Now all that is prefaced on the assumption that the gutters are installed flush to the fascia and are not a hanging style gutter.

Good luck!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:38 pm 
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The job was for a roof tear off, reshingle and new gutter installation. It wasn't like he put back the old gutters.

The contract never specified the gutter apron.

Im not an expert on roofing so I never even questioned the fact that the gutter apron was not in the contract. I only noticed it after the fact.

There is no nailable fascia so he did use hangers.

I had him back once because he nailed the hangers directly on the 1st course of shingles and when you looked at the property it looked real bad with white hangers directly nailed on the shingles. I told him I wanted the hangers under the 1st course not on top of the 1st course. He did that. I have to get up on the roof this weekend to make sure he replaced the 1st course and didn't just pull the nails out and move the hangers.

I had 3 other contractors at the property looking at it yesterday and all said some kind of flashing was necessary and should have been done with the job. I even talked with the supply company he bought the materials at and they confirmed the same thing.

What Im not happy about is

1. No flashing - you can see plywood!

2. When he installed the new gutters I have all this exposed wood under the soffit which I didn't have before

Im not expecting something for nothing I just want it done right.

Grumpy, where you at in Chicago?ImageImageImage


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:51 pm 
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I'd like to re-emphasize my concern:

Its not under the soffit. Im a little pissed about that as I never had exposed plywood before. But it is what it is.

But, my area of concern is where the shingles come into the gutter you can see the plywood sheathing under the shingles

I guarantee water will work its way back up under the shingles and make the plywood wet on the edge.

With both the roofing and gutters done at the same time I can't imagine this piece of flashing is not a standard item.

Maybe Im wrong though.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:34 pm 
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It would have been standard for either Grumpy or me.

By the way, Grumpy is out of the Glenview/Northbrook area and I am around Elgin.

Ed

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:22 am 
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It looks to me like it was resheeted and the plywood sticks out to far.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:31 am 
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ugly gutter job. I hate box miters, we like to cut a 45 degree and use a strip miter inside so you only see one clean cut,also nut and rod hangers attached to a hidden bar hanger look a Hell of a lot better than thoose ugly straps, were anal about looks.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:50 am 
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Ugly gutter job, no kidding.

I take pride in my investment properties which is why Im pretty pissed about this.

I stopped over at the supply company yesterday and they told me the contractor spent about $100 for 45 ft of gutter and straps. They looked the PO up for me.

I told the guy I'll pay for materials but Im not paying his labor.

So, Im shorting him about $240. His estimate was $350 so I figure $100+10 for tax. I told him I don't want him on the job anymore.

I have my Window Contractor coming out next week to build up the soffits to get rid of the gutter straps, put in gutter apron, and then redo the soffit in new aluminum and rehang these gutters for $500. This guy has done excellent work for me in the past and I should have had him to the gutters from the beginning. He's a wiz on the break.

I figure its the right thing to do. I don't want my properties looking crappy.

BTW, the guys from Illinois. I owe you a beer if your ever on the NW side of Chicago. I live in Edison Park. And next time I need a roof I'll get ahold of you guys to bid it.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:46 pm 
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I was wondering ....
if we are looking at plywood extending over the fascia board...how did they install the gutterstrap under the plywood, I think we're looking at the back side of Ice & water shield without the seperator paper removed.
Either way, with that kind of gutter, I could remove it, slide in a c style drip edge and re-install on that porch in half a day. rebuilding the porch would be aditional to the contract and without seeing that....the simple drip edge question has become a complicated "who is responsible for the re-build" question


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:40 pm 
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I was wondering ....
if we are looking at plywood extending over the fascia board...how did they install the gutterstrap under the plywood, I think we're looking at the back side of Ice & water shield without the seperator paper removed.
Either way, with that kind of gutter, I could remove it, slide in a c style drip edge and re-install on that porch in half a day. rebuilding the porch would be aditional to the contract and without seeing that....the simple drip edge question has become a complicated "who is responsible for the re-build" question[quote]

He didn't put the straps under the sheathing. Originally he tacked the straps right on top of the roof. I told him no way, not accepting that and it needs to go under the 1st course. So, he moved the straps under the 1st course and tacked them to the starter shingles and apparently replaced the 1st course. I need to verify that though.

Im not expecting anything for free nor am I expecting him to do a soffit rebuild. Im just saying he didn't do the job right with no gutter apron and I now have exposed plywood under the soffit that I never had before with the old gutters.

If he would have put in a gutter apron and capped the exposed plywood under the soffit I would have been OK with the job. Also if he called me and said "we have a problem, I need to cap the soffit as there's bare wood and its gonna cost another $100" I probably would have been ok with it.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:18 pm 
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there is confusing terminology going on here...
a gutter apron is a drip edge extrusion that
is part of an aluminum gutter system often used
when there is not any other method of installation available, or if the homeowner simply does not want the gutter hangers to penetrate the fascia work.
If you read a previous thread about this you will find that the gutter apron became useless because it would not allow the installer to pitch the gutter in the direction that the homeowner preferred. This plywood overhang is the problem. Your concern about not having it covered with aluminum is a lame solution to a more serious problem. Ice dams in this area will wick up into the plywood, eventually de-laminating it and causing roof edge failure. Covering it with aluminum only hides the problem. Proper solution is to cut plywood back, fabricate an aluminum drip edge to tie new work into existing fascia coverage. The attempt to extend the roof edge further out from the fascia, although accomplished by extending roof sheathing is
most like not acceptable by anyone in the trades in this forum. A more acceptable method would have been
cedar shingles, which, prior to the introduction of
pre-fabricated drip edges was the accepted method of starting a shingled roof. Hope this helps, and I apologize if I am sounding condescending.

David


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:30 am 
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just leave it alone.
when you reroof next time,
put the drip edge/gutter apron on.

gweedo.


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